In the Catholicism Forum this week, our moderator, Nicole Palmby, explained her personal decision not to wear pants or shorts, but only skirts and dresses. This sparked an interesting discussion among some of the female members of the forum. What is modest dress? Are there objective standards, or must this always be a personal decision?
Check out Nicole's post, and join in the discussion!
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I read her discussion. It’s a non issue. She’s flip flopping. Says its her choice but she feels it’s her obligation to God. This is a really stupid topic when there is a massive molestation issue in the church._
Valdes says, “Says its her choice but she feels it’s her obligation to God.”
Excuse me, but that’s not flip-flopping. It is a choice. And it is my choice to not wear pants/shorts. I feel called by God to dress this way, but as someone who has free will–as we all do–it is still MY CHOICE. I could easily have chosen to continue wearing pants and shorts.
You also said, “This is a really stupid topic when there is a massive molestation issue in the church.”
Yes, that is true, and that is a topic that has been discussed on our forums, as well. All issues of faith are discussed on our forums, as well they should be. And that includes modesty. And saints. And prayer. And many other things.
If you would like to discuss other issues, I urge you to start a thread.
Just because you disagree with a certain topic or would like to see other things discussed does not make any topic “stupid.” If you want to see change, make it.
Nicole: Free-will is a huge interest of mine. It is an issue which you would be getting ahead of yourself to say we have. Although I do agree that you have other choices, I do not believe that those choices are yours in the making. In order to have true free will you must not only have the power to choose, but to make the circumstances by which you choose. In other words, If you would have been born in Saudi Arabia, then you would not be discussing this issue right now. Free-will is a highly developed argument in our current era, but it has not been found definitively. Your power to choose is there, but your power over circumstance is not. The reason I disagree with your position is because you try to draw to conflicting ideas. You have the power to choose any way you choose to dress. However, God wishes you to dress a certain way. He grants you the choice that you say, I concede, but you choose what is the best choice (Gods Choice) in order to fulfill the best of what he wants from you. In other words, you make your choices based on what you think Good thinks is best for you. You accredit all of your decision making to God, and you do not make decisions based on what you believe to be your choice, but the best choice that God would like you to live by. The reason this is not compatible with free-will is because you do not make choices based on your own want, but what another being wants for you.
Valdes, thank you for responding with a reasoned argument to my comment.
I understand what you’re saying about free will. I disagree with you because I did create the circumstance in which I made the decision to dress modestly. I was not raised Catholic. I made the choice to become Catholic, thereby putting myself in the situation to make these decisions.
And you’re right. If I’d been born in Saudi Arabia, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. But I wasn’t. I fear an argument like that could get us into “what if” territory, and that can go on all day.
Nicole:
Like I said there’s no reason to conclude anything about free-will, yet. I see you chose to be Catholic, but like I said you only made a choice within your circumstance. You did not in any way create your circumstance. Just out of curiosity, where do you draw the line between your choice and Gods will?
Valdes,
I don’t really see your argument here. You write, “You accredit all of your decision making to God, and you do not make decisions based on what you believe to be your choice, but the best choice that God would like you to live by. The reason this is not compatible with free-will is because you do not make choices based on your own want, but what another being wants for you.”
I didn’t see where Nicole “accredited all her decision making to God,” but that’s not really my questions.
Even if she does “not make choices based on [her] own want, but what another being wants for [her],” how is this different from choosing to take cholesterol medication because another being (my doctor) wants me to, or choosing to eat my vegetables today because another being (my mother) wanted me to three decades ago and explained about nutrition.
What I’m getting at is I don’t see how choosing to follow someone’s advice, be it my mom’s about vegetables or God’s about wardrobe, automatically means I’m not making a free-will choice just because what I choose is also what that particular someone wants me to do.
SM
SM: Thanks for the question. There is a very simple answer to that. Mainly because that is my whole point. You don’t take medicine because your doctor demands you to, but because you have a genuine concern for your own health. There are millions of people who choose not to do what doctors tell them (i.e Smokers). Nicole didn’t make a choice really. She’s just behaving like she thinks she’s supposed to behave. If she were born in Saudi Arabia this wouldn’t be a discussion.
Valdes,
You said, “This is a really stupid topic when there is a massive molestation issue in the church._”
“Nicole didn’t make a choice really. She’s just behaving like she thinks she’s supposed to behave. If she were born in Saudi Arabia this wouldn’t be a discussion.”
We could say the same thing about you, perhaps it’s really stupid that you’re commenting here when there are people starving in the world, there are people dying of aids and cancer, etc. The list could go on and on. What does any of this have to do with modest dress? Are you saying that because there is a molestation issue nothing else should be discussed?
Of course she made a choice like we all do when we decide what we’re going to wear, eat, etc.
What does Saudi Arabia has to do with Nicole’s decision to wear a skirt instead of pants? She was not born in Saudi Arabia so why is Saudi Arabia even an issue to you?
Eureka! You sort of get it Laura. Half way anyways. I’m being active right now on this web page trying to merge my thoughts with those of this blog. That is my first step to changing the world. I don’t just blog here, but everywhere. The first step is getting people to accept self responsibility. I can’t do that until the main issue is addressed and fixed. You understood that my decisions are limited to the range of my circumstance. Good. That is why Saudi Arabia was used. Saudi Arabia if considered a circumstance (it is) could be used to derive the amount of choices one has. I think the molestation issue is prime, and the dress code issue should definitely be examined with more care.
Valdes,
What thoughts are you’re trying to merge with this blog?
By “blogging everywhere” do you mean that you blog about a wide range of topics everywhere or do you like to blog about Saudi Arabia everywhere?
Laura: Sorry for the delay. The merge I’m trying to make is self responsibility. The church has had none since its beginning. In order to validate any Christian maxims the church must assume responsibility.
What a world we live in when women are NOT encouraged to be modest. As a man I may have no business in this topic, but I honor and respect highly any lady’s efforts to be more modest. More power to you, Nicole! And don’t let anyone ever sway you away from your decision : every shred of Christian teaching — from St. John Chrysostom to St. Padre Pio — shows us that modesty is proper and decent.
You’ve done the right thing and hopefully more will follow your example.
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